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Loki invisibility vs. Ash smoke screen

  • whos better for invisibility attack? im trying to dicide whos better.

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    • loki's invisibilty..all the way.....

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    • Loki's invisibility lasts longer at equal ranks, but also decide which frame you prefer as they are quite different from one another. ALSO Loki's invisibility does not cloak your sentinel if you have one.

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    • ash's smoke screen isn't rly invisibilty..it's rather short range and isn't as long in tim wise. the contributor is right loki's is more effective but doesn't conceal ur sentinel...though if your using loki chances are your going to be using shade so it doesn't rly matter

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    • i use loki, i dont use any sentinels, they are just a bother if they got detected..

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    • an ash has the ability to knock back people from a specific distance and allows him enough time to kill his next target

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    • thanks il use loki now :)

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    • Caboose19997, Ash's Smoke Screen IS invisibility. It can't be "short-ranged" because it doesn't have a range, except for the initial stagger effect. 

      As for OP, choose which frame to use based on your play style. Keep in mind that while Loki's invisibility lasts longer than Ash's, Ash's abilities are more oriented toward killing, whereas Loki's are more oriented toward distraction and control, and none of his abilities can deal any amount of damage.

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    • They cannot deal direct damage, but they're still a lot more usefulllll ( high level missions, except Switch Teleport. Never liked that )

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    • People seem to have forgotten that ash's smokescreen costs less energy than loki. The ratio of InvisTime/Energy on both of them is about the same, with loki's being just a tad better, which grants 1second of invis/~4.17 energy (max rank), while ash's gives 1second of invis/4.375 energy (max rank) (please note that power duration mods were not taken into account in this math, this is just using the base amount you get from each ability). If you stop there, then loki's invisibilty wins; you spend 0.205 energy less for each second of invisibility. However, note that ash's invisibility staggers enemies and hides your sentinel. Hope this helps.

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    • 71.228.186.133 wrote:
      Caboose19997, Ash's Smoke Screen IS invisibility. It can't be "short-ranged" because it doesn't have a range, except for the initial stagger effect. 

      As for OP, choose which frame to use based on your play style. Keep in mind that while Loki's invisibility lasts longer than Ash's, Ash's abilities are more oriented toward killing, whereas Loki's are more oriented toward distraction and control, and none of his abilities can deal any amount of damage.

      Untrue, Loki's radial disarm does damage.

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    • DNA Instinct wrote:
      71.228.186.133 wrote:
      Caboose19997, Ash's Smoke Screen IS invisibility. It can't be "short-ranged" because it doesn't have a range, except for the initial stagger effect. 

      As for OP, choose which frame to use based on your play style. Keep in mind that while Loki's invisibility lasts longer than Ash's, Ash's abilities are more oriented toward killing, whereas Loki's are more oriented toward distraction and control, and none of his abilities can deal any amount of damage.

      Untrue, Loki's radial disarm does damage.

      It doesn't do damage! It just forces the enemies to resort to mellee. No actual damage dealt.

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    • DNA Instinct wrote:
      71.228.186.133 wrote:
      Caboose19997, Ash's Smoke Screen IS invisibility. It can't be "short-ranged" because it doesn't have a range, except for the initial stagger effect. 

      As for OP, choose which frame to use based on your play style. Keep in mind that while Loki's invisibility lasts longer than Ash's, Ash's abilities are more oriented toward killing, whereas Loki's are more oriented toward distraction and control, and none of his abilities can deal any amount of damage.

      Untrue, Loki's radial disarm does damage.

      a true fact,but why would someone use that for Damage!?It does so low damage that you mine as well use your gun

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    • it can kill enemies in M prime but i havent used it anywhere else

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    • I'd just like to point out that Both give a melee damage buff of +50% regular melee damage and +100% charge damage, secondly in the dueling room I'd go with Ash on the field Loki's has the most utility because while they have roughly the same energy to invis time you have to consider the fact that your also getting more damage out because of that melee boost, loki's speed and invisibility lasting longer, if you want to consider that ash could also use damaging abilities while smokescreen is active ash's energy cost goes up but his abilities don't recieve that melee bonus.

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    • DNA Instinct is right, Radial Disarm does damage (although it's not much). Refer to the description of the ability on this wiki if you don't believe it. However, Lokis who use it in high level missions are generally frowned upon as a level 100 enemy will smash your face in with it's melee attack, especially in nightmare mode. This is due to (in my opinion) unbalanced stat scaling, so until there's a change to that, proceed with caution if you don't want to be hated by everyone in the group.

      VrasTheLoki wrote:
      They cannot deal direct damage, but they're still a lot more usefulllll ( high level missions, except Switch Teleport. Never liked that )

      Switch Teleport is at least as useful as Decoy while playing in a party, as Loki can really save lives by switching with a downed teammate (e.g. knocked down by Shield Lancers). Your teammate will be safe (unless your initial position wasn't safe obviously) and you can run away as you were not the one who got knocked down. Lokis who only use Switch Teleport for jokes are a prime example of players who do not care to actually master their Warframe.

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    • You guys are forgetting that Alex.holt.10420 wrote:
      whos better for invisibility attack? im trying to dicide whos better

      'invisibility ATTACK'

      Who is better for dealing damage when invisible

      That's his question.


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    • Shonoun wrote:
      You guys are forgetting that Alex.holt.10420 wrote:
      whos better for invisibility attack? im trying to dicide whos better
      'invisibility ATTACK'

      Who is better for dealing damage when invisible

      That's his question.


      Both have their damage buffed by the same amount for melee while invisible.

      Loki's Invisibility lasts longer, Ash's costs less energy to cast.

      Ash has stuff like Shuriken and Blade Storm to attack, while Loki has Decoy. Ash's Teleport is obviously better for killing with a strong melee build compared to Loki's Switch Teleport that's mostly good for teamplay.

      Lastly Ash has the highest amount of health in the game (together with a couple other frames) iirc and average shield capacity, while Loki has low health and shield capacity. However, Loki is slightly faster than Ash (not taking the teleport into account) who already is a very fast frame. Either way, do NOT underestimate how tough it gets to take shots from enemies that are above level ~60 (this goes for both Ash and Loki).

      All things considered it's about personal preferrance and playstyle in the end.

      Note that Ash's high health pool can be advantageous for Nightmare Mode (e.g. No Shields, Health Vampire, ...), where the no energy debuff is pretty common and leaves both frames unable to use invisibility unless there's an energy orb about.

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    • Loki does more bonus damage while invis, also, the health difference in nightmare mode doesn't matter since the drain and stuff is percentage based.

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    • 83.160.103.193 wrote:
      Loki does more bonus damage while invis, also, the health difference in nightmare mode doesn't matter since the drain and stuff is percentage based.

      Not true, it's the same. Also I was referring to no shields/energy nightmare mostly.

      Please stop spreading false information.

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    • Ladies and Gentlemen, Ash vs Loki

      The Never-ending debate that will rage on untill people realize that they are two completely different frames and all they have in common is invis powers.

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    • Why is there an entire discussion on Loki. Haven't played Ash, but Loki is just a shitty starter frame meant to be discarded once you get something better. If you want a frame that will keep you from taking damage, screw invis get Trinity.

      Spam "Link" and do damage from being hit without taking any yourself. You can tank without taking any damage. While you are at it restore people's mana, health, and in a pinch the entire group's hp and shields. Why stop there? The group heal makes you all invincible for a bit as well.

      So all that or invisibility? Such a hard choice. *rolls eyes*

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    • Woundheir wrote:
      Why is there an entire discussion on Loki. Haven't played Ash, but Loki is just a shitty starter frame meant to be discarded once you get something better. If you want a frame that will keep you from taking damage, screw invis get Trinity.

      Spam "Link" and do damage from being hit without taking any yourself. You can tank without taking any damage. While you are at it restore people's mana, health, and in a pinch the entire group's hp and shields. Why stop there? The group heal makes you all invincible for a bit as well.

      So all that or invisibility? Such a hard choice. *rolls eyes*

      There are a couple of warframes that are a lot more viable than others at this point. Personally I never considered getting Loki, as I don't dig getting oneshot whenever my invisibility isn't up. He's not entirely useless in teams in my opinion, but as far as soloing goes all you can really do is stealth through the map in high-end missions and avoid all mobs (and thereby all mods they might drop).

      However, this discussion was mostly about the invisibility and I suppose the answer is neither is better per se. Good thing we got that sorted out.

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    • Depends on what you like...I think loki is sick...but I like ash better

      in my opinion

      Loki= trolling all your enemies...

      Ash= kill all your enemies...

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    • Lokis Invis boost your melee damge by 150% and your charge damage by 200%..

      Charge Damage boost + Loki's Invis with Orthos does like 2400 damage without crit


      So there you gooooooooo

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    • 83.252.30.129 wrote:
      Lokis Invis boost your melee damge by 150% and your charge damage by 200%..

      Charge Damage boost + Loki's Invis with Orthos does like 2400 damage without crit


      So there you gooooooooo

      So does Ash's smoke screen

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    • yap and even shades invisibility, but only for one hit ;)

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    • DNA Instinct wrote:
      71.228.186.133 wrote:
      Caboose19997, Ash's Smoke Screen IS invisibility. It can't be "short-ranged" because it doesn't have a range, except for the initial stagger effect. 

      As for OP, choose which frame to use based on your play style. Keep in mind that while Loki's invisibility lasts longer than Ash's, Ash's abilities are more oriented toward killing, whereas Loki's are more oriented toward distraction and control, and none of his abilities can deal any amount of damage.

      Untrue, Loki's radial disarm does damage.

      Unless the target in question is a level 20- Infested Charger, Disarm really doesn't do more than tickle it in terms of damage.

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    • 95.208.162.83 wrote:
      yap and even shades invisibility, but only for one hit ;)

      All 'stealth' attacks do this, meaning if the enemies are unalerted, you will deal 1.5x damage with normal melee attacks and 2.0x damage with charge melee attacks.

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    • Can loki jump off a cliff and switch teleport mid air? If so, it should at least indirectly deal damage?

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    • there is already a billion replies to this but what the hell. loki's invisibility lasts a little longer then ashes but yeah, your sentinel will not cloak also. ashes invisibility does not last as long but is spammable due to it's lower energy cost, you can use it more. 

      Loki's invisibity is more to avoid personal harm rather then using it for extra damage, as loki has low shields compared to ash. ashes' is based purly on short quick bursts of damage.

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    • Okay so, i didnt mean to make this agurment HUGE, it was a simple question between to warframes. but sense you guys cant agree,  i have made both warframes and I can see a couple of things. ash is more fun to play as just couse hes 2x the warframe loki is, loki's invisabilty is lame makes you wanna run away from people. Ash you can stand up to poeple and fight in the shadow. TO ME i love ash more than loki, just couse 3 things he doesnt look like a gay hammer head shark, is more on combat, and uses less energy(meaning i can use it more than loki). If you still dont agree with me, then private message me I love to hear what you have to say, maybe you can change my mind

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    • "loki's invisabilty is lame makes you wanna run away from people"

      How so?


      "Ash you can stand up to poeple and fight in the shadow."

      Loki is fully capable of fighting without stealth as well. Decoy and Radial Disarm make it easy to.


      "he doesnt look like a gay hammer head shark"

      Very subjective... I'm not a fan of Loki's helmet either, but I think Ash is one of the ugliest Warframes.


      "is more on combat"

      Yes, he's more offense oriented while Loki is more crowd control oriented.


      "Uses less energy(meaning i can use it more than loki)"

      Yes, but that's because it lasts a shorter period of time. As someone pointed about above, the Stealth time / Energy is about the same for both abilities.



      Anyway, it seems like you've already made up your mind, although your choice wasn't even based on the thread's topic ('invisiblity attacks'). <_<

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    • 71.131.183.197 wrote:
      People seem to have forgotten that ash's smokescreen costs less energy than loki. The ratio of InvisTime/Energy on both of them is about the same, with loki's being just a tad better, which grants 1second of invis/~4.17 energy (max rank), while ash's gives 1second of invis/4.375 energy (max rank) (please note that power duration mods were not taken into account in this math, this is just using the base amount you get from each ability). If you stop there, then loki's invisibilty wins; you spend 0.205 energy less for each second of invisibility. However, note that ash's invisibility staggers enemies and hides your sentinel. Hope this helps.

      Yes, and on top of this you must also consider both frame's energy pool

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    • Voqualin wrote:
      "loki's invisabilty is lame makes you wanna run away from people"

      How so?


      "Ash you can stand up to poeple and fight in the shadow."

      Loki is fully capable of fighting without stealth as well. Decoy and Radial Disarm make it easy to.


      "he doesnt look like a gay hammer head shark"

      Very subjective... I'm not a fan of Loki's helmet either, but I think Ash is one of the ugliest Warframes.


      "is more on combat"

      Yes, he's more offense oriented while Loki is more crowd control oriented.


      "Uses less energy(meaning i can use it more than loki)"

      Yes, but that's because it lasts a shorter period of time. As someone pointed about above, the Stealth time / Energy is about the same for both abilities.



      Anyway, it seems like you've already made up your mind, although your choice wasn't even based on the thread's topic ('invisiblity attacks'). <_<


      wouldnt say loki is crowd control. if your building him for that you would be better of with saryn. her venom is way to contagious, her mellee buff is alright for taking out hords. and well her miasma....well must i rly go there?

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    • Fairly sure he wasn't only referring to Decoy when he said crowd control, although Radial Disarm doesn't do anything worth mentioning to Infested and shouldn't be used against high level mobs of other factions either due to lolwtf (melee) damage scaling. Better have a Frost cast Snow Globe than using that Disarm.

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    • ^ true dat

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    • Xtakku wrote:
      Fairly sure he wasn't only referring to Decoy when he said crowd control, although Radial Disarm doesn't do anything worth mentioning to Infested and shouldn't be used against high level mobs of other factions either due to lolwtf (melee) damage scaling. Better have a Frost cast Snow Globe than using that Disarm.

      That is true, but regardless of how effective it is, it's still a crowd control ability.

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    • From what I remember, Loki's invisibility gives him 100% chance to crit while Ash does not. Ash's invisibility costs 35 energy and Loki's cost 50. Energy is usually never a problem in this game since there is so many energy orbs laying around. Ash's invisibility staggers enemies when he casts it and Loki's invisibility also lasts for a lot longer. Loki invisibility > Ash invisibility. However, I find most of Ash's skill set better than Loki's.

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    • 75.82.33.45 wrote:
      From what I remember, Loki's invisibility gives him 100% chance to crit while Ash does not. Ash's invisibility costs 35 energy and Loki's cost 50. Energy is usually never a problem in this game since there is so many energy orbs laying around. Ash's invisibility staggers enemies when he casts it and Loki's invisibility also lasts for a lot longer. Loki invisibility > Ash invisibility. However, I find most of Ash's skill set better than Loki's.

      You remember wrong about the invisibility, both get 50% bonus on normal attacks and 100% on charged attacks is all, just like Shade's ability. However the bonus also stacks with crit dmg bonus, but it doesn't make you autocrit in either case.

      Haven't done the math on how many seconds of invisibility you get per energy point spent on casting for either of em but frankly I don't think this ability is your bread and butter on Ash anyway...

      Actually, I just did the math because I keep seeing posts that go like "but Loki's lasts longer!" / "but Ash's is cheaper!":

      Considering maxed Power Duration mods (Continuity and Constitution and maxed Invisibility/Smoke Screen but without considering any effects from alternate helmets or Streamline:

      Ash: 8*1.58 = 12.64s (costs 35)

      Loki: 12*1.58 = 18.96s (costs 50)

      This means Ash gets approx. 0.3611 seconds for 1 energy spent whereas Loki gets 0.3792. As the game tends to round stuff (in this case round both durations up to full seconds), that would change the values to 0.3714 seconds for Ash and 0.38 for Loki.

      For those who find decimals confusing: In theory, Loki gets 38 seconds of invisibility for 100 energy, while Ash gets 37. Seeing as Ash would require 35 energy for 3 casts each that'd make it 39 seconds for 105 energy. However, each cast takes about 0.5s to complete for Ash (none for Loki I believe).

      TL;DR Duration:Cost Ratio MARGINALLY favors Loki, while Ash needs less energy per cast (useful if Invis is merely a panic button to the player, that's nice). Thus, neither invisibility skill is really superior.

      There you go. Any embarrassing mistakes courtesy of my clock telling me it's 6:23 AM.

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    • Ash's invisibility is infinitely superior as an offensive ability because of, as other people pointed out, the lower cost, meaning each boosted strike costs you less energy. Loki can move about easier in invisibility because he doesn't need to re-cast it. The savings in energy just to BE invisibile is completely negligable unless you are always in invisibility, which you really shouldn't be even in a high level loki.

      What it really comes down to is what you want out of the warframe. As people have pointed out, ash doesn't come across favorably in comparison to the loki in the abilities department because the ash warframe is built for an entirely different job. Loki is highly mobile lockdown, where as Ash is burst damage assassination. Their roles are almost completely opposed. Loki's teleport is better for moving the enemy out of postion, Ash's teleport is for saving a teammate who is down or closing to melee range in a tough room. Ash lacks decoy and instead gets the shuriken, a very low energy cost nuke that will generally instantly kill two enemies or will instantly take out a problem enemy you don't have time to deal with properly, like the shield ospreys. Decoy doesn't actively hurt anyone, but can confuse the AI for a short period, giving the entire team respite and the ability to kill enemies that are dangerous to them but are not going to wipe the team by just being up and applying serious buffs or debuffs.

      Radial disarm and bladestorm, again, are completely different. Radial disarm exists to slay bosses or to get Ash attack immunity in a tight spot while reducing enemy numbers. Loki's radial disarm, again, neuters a room's ability to hurt the team for a period of time and makes it so the team can safely skirmish.

      Finally the frames are inherently different. Ash and Loki's speeds may not be equal, but they are comparable and both will outpace any team they are on. Ash however has more HP and decent shields, meaning he basically can, with his speed, stealth, and a shade, survive some pretty silly assaults and revive teammates, place strategic shuriken, or generally unfuck a situation after it goes bad. As an Ash player I can't overstate that this thing isn't a "Rogue" that just dodges attacks and then goes down to a punch. It is one of the most survivable warframes out there with all of it's abilities being useful when the chips are down, and you could press any button 1-4 and basically turn a situation for yourself or the team. The Loki's high energy pool and pittiful defenses religate him to using abilities in any situation, creating a more sustained crowd control effect with no real ability to "Turn the tide." A team will notice the utility of the loki more often because they will be seeing more decoys and more teleports, but once the energy runs out or his toolkid proves insufficient, the loki really doesn't have much to show and really needs to hope someone else can unfuck everything.


      If you are thinking about getting a Loki in order to do charged melee attacks for massive damage, you probably would want the Ash. 

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    • Max level (without mods) Ash has 150 energy, Loki has 225

      scaling both invis wouldn't loki have an edge considering his invis is longer, while ash need to re-cast almost twice to keep up. thus burning up 60 energy in total?

      taken from the wiki (unless it is outdated/changed since)

      Ash invis: Melee attacks hit for 50% extra damage while invisible (yellow numbers) and charge attacks for 100% extra damage. These attacks can critically hit (red numbers). However, Organ Shatter does not affect yellow hits, only red critical hits.

      Loki invis: While invisible your melee attacks deal 150% damage with normal attacks and 200% damage with charged attacks (yellow numbers). Critical strikes also receive this bonus (red numbers). Take note that this ability does not make you deal constant critical strikes, just boosts your damage.

      they both have the same armor value, however Ash can fight well outside of stealth, while loki due to his low shield and health mostly stay invis, however can be used offensive.

      my terrible math skill, correct me if I am wrong (I think I am):

      Ash: 150/30 (max enery without mods devided by enery cost) = smokes 5 times (recast back to back; 0 remain energy) = max rank mods: 8 sec (re-cast without energy orbs)= 40 sec invisibility

      Loki: 225/50 (max energy without mods devided by enery cost) = 4 times  (recast back to back; remain 25 energy) = max rank mods: 12 sec * 4 (re-cast without energy orbs)  = 48 sec invisibility

      to me Loki has 8 seconds longer advantage using invisibility back to back.

      If that is the case, Loki's invis seems better, he does have a larger energy pull than ash. I wonder with similar builds, mods per mods; Streamline, Continuity, Constitution, Flow (just for LOLs) same ranks etc, Locust Helmet (for Ash), Essence Helmet (for Loki), , which is better in the end? I am assuming it will only widen the gap even futher in favor of Loki.

      I do admit, Ash has a 1 sec stun which can cancel enemy's cast animations (i think) and cloak sentinels (I don't know why you would need one when you already have stealth, also they get killed for Loki. Only useful against infested at that point).

      Anyways...

      it's all depends on why you want to use invisibility. If the bulletpoints for both description is correct, Loki is better as stealth melee warframe, while Ash is a distraction to get breathing room when things get bad.

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    • Xtakku wrote:

      Considering maxed Power Duration mods (Continuity and Constitution and maxed Invisibility/Smoke Screen but without considering any effects from alternate helmets or Streamline:

      Ash: 8*1.58 = 12.64s (costs 35)

      Loki: 12*1.58 = 18.96s (costs 50)

      This means Ash gets approx. 0.3611 seconds for 1 energy spent whereas Loki gets 0.3792. As the game tends to round stuff (in this case round both durations up to full seconds), that would change the values to 0.3714 seconds for Ash and 0.38 for Loki.

      For those who find decimals confusing: In theory, Loki gets 38 seconds of invisibility for 100 energy, while Ash gets 37. Seeing as Ash would require 35 energy for 3 casts each that'd make it 39 seconds for 105 energy. However, each cast takes about 0.5s to complete for Ash (none for Loki I believe).

      TL;DR Duration:Cost Ratio MARGINALLY favors Loki, while Ash needs less energy per cast (useful if Invis is merely a panic button to the player, that's nice). Thus, neither invisibility skill is really superior.

      There you go. Any embarrassing mistakes courtesy of my clock telling me it's 6:23 AM.

      I sure love quoting myself. Loki is obviously better if you want to be invisible continously but not because his invisibility lasts longer (as I pointed out above it's pretty much the same in terms of energy consumption per time stealthed), it's just because his energy pool is higher.

      Note about my comment that I found out Loki has a delay of 0.75s and a cooldown (after invisibility expires) of 0.25s, whereas Ash's invisibility has (according to this wiki) 0.6s delay (with no cooldown afterwards). If you're looking for continuous invisibiliy, go Loki. However continuous invisibility seems barely useful to me when it comes to content that is neither lowlevel (even with invisibility you won't get highlevel heavies down, not even a heavily modded Orthos Prime like mine can do that unless I keep spamming charged attacks) nor rushable (assassination/spy/sabotage/raid/whatever).

      Everything I say when it comes to discussing viability of gear is usually referring to endgame content, which would be defense past wave 30 or so (would have said 40-50 before the Bastille nerf) and Tower III Defense maybe, although the latter has mobs of level 130 at most (last wave) and Xini or Varro for example will easily surpass that at Wave 35-40 iirc. I'm actually working on a tier list to help new(ish) players pick gear according to viability, I think I'll link it here once I'm halfway done (as I want feedback to improve it).

      Edit: Gear Tier List

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    • I am a fan of Loki over Ash, because while Smoke Screen costs less, it doesn't last as long, and when using heavy melee weapons, you can get 1 or 2 charges in with Ash's invis, but an easy 3-4 with Loki's. My only real issue with Loki's invis is that it doesn't work on your sentinal, which can kinda suck because Guardian is a lifesaver on any frame, and with a frame as delicate as Loki, you want as much defense as you can get. In the end it all comes down to preference, but I like Loki's better.

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    • I would argue that Loki would be better endgame, as

      1) His abilities never become less effective, unlike any direct damage ability excepting Nova's, as while armor and health increases, your damage does not outside of mods.

      2) He has excellent utility skills like switch teleport (allowing you to get heavies to where your team can kill them easily/trap bosses, as well as teleport a fallen ally to where he can be revived while you are invisible, also has synergy with decoy), radial disarm (essentially makes all enemy units nonthreatening), and decoy (sometimes even better than invisibility to use as it protects your team, defense points, and any sentinel you are trying to master AND will cluster enemies to make killing easy). This is especially important because most high-level content requires a team.

      3) His invisibility is much better for anything except panic buttoning as it requires fewer casts, thus allowing you to do far more damage and escape much farther before having to recast and potentially take damage. This is great for taking out a problem heavy.

      4) Loki doesn't need Focus, saving a slot and mod points.

      5) Sort of repeating, but radial disarm not only takes away guns, it also takes away all enemy abilities except for infested, and does nice damage to chargers. Max rank will kill level 38 chargers in one hit. Note that it is very, very effective on corpus, including all osprey, and disarmed enemies are unaffected by osprey shields. Loki is then capable of outrunning everything thanks to his speed, even if he has no energy left.

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    • i used both ash and loki. and i love the both of em. the prob for lokis invisibility was the sentinel. which even if it was shade got in the way. he does last longer and using a powerful melee weapon kills the zone. specially if u can use radial disarm and follow up by a galatine strike while invisible. my loki killed stalker with a single blow of crit damage around 7800.so ill assume ash can match that too. loki can lure more enemies for the kill where as ash has to hunt or just show up in a heartbeat by using teleport and you know the rest. so in my honest opinion i love them both. and i really wouldnt underestimate loki considering he can kill most bosses while invisble. streamline continuity and that helmet of his can make him unimaginably efficient at it. also have the same setup on ash. so his shuriken can chow out the damage or just go invisible 

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    • Loki now cloaks sentinals... Loki wins now.

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    • This discussion is still going on? They are both bad frames. Why would anyone wear either?

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    • FYI not only does Loki cloak sentinal but the teleport for ash staggers

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    • bad frames? my ash has 700 shield and 1110 health xD

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    • Yay? I have frames with that much with abilities that are actually useful... My trinity I keep way less on, but it never dies since it's Link reduces damage taken by 75%. In a pinch it can heal the entire group's health and shields as well as make them invincible for 10+ sec with one Blessing cast. Energy Vampire restores anergy to the group.

      Ash's only decent ability is Shuriken, because it is cheap on energy, seeks enemies, and ignores armor. Blade Storm looks decent in theory, but when put into practice doesn't do as much damage as other frames' AoE.

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    • if you want to have a debate about the usefulness of powers go ahead, but i was simply refering to how ash is superior in many ways regarding survivability, stat wise. smoke screen is spammable and you can avoid damage by using it. i never use blade storm, it's a waste of time, i agree. trinity is good but i have gotten tired to the boring rotation of powers. i use her to keep my entire team invincible in high level missions, which means rotations of energy farming+blessing, which is boring imo.

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    • Loki's invis now cloaks your sentinel (pretty much the only disadvantage in comparison to Ash's smoke screen). So yeah, Loki's invis greatly surpasses Ash's :)

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    • 210.55.212.243 wrote:
      Loki's invis now cloaks your sentinel (pretty much the only disadvantage in comparison to Ash's smoke screen). So yeah, Loki's invis greatly surpasses Ash's :)

      barely, and only in terms of energy spent per second when cloaked. everything else is pretty much the same after it cloaks the sentinel as well now, for all i know.

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    • Seriously why do you all keep discussing this. Both bad Warframes, both bad skills.

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    • If you try to use either as a Rhino or Nova, it's not going to work. 

      Edit: Except for Iron skin. Smoke screen can replace that in some ways, and is better in others.

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    • Shade. And both frames do more damage, Rhino takes way less as well. You really don't need invis in this game. It isn't good for speed runs either since in most cases you can run by stuff, especially with Volt. And it's not good for defense missions, which are mostly about defending the relic, which you don't want to be invisible for. Ideally should use some sort of CC. (Nyx, Frost, Nekro, just killing them fast, etc.) Its not good for exterminate because you want to kill stuff fast, not just hang out in invis. Its not good for survival because if you aren't killing stuff fast enough you run out of air. There is nothing invisibility is actually good for that would make up for any useful frame's abilities... Maybe PvP? In a coop game...

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    • So you're completely incapable of seeing the usefulness of invunerability, increased melee damage, and radial stagger, for 35 energy? Don't say shade, because it is uncontrollable, and disappears as soon as you attack. Blessing, while definitely, better, uses 100 energy for 2 more seconds. Iron skin uses 15 more energy, and will get depleted in a second against high level enemies, again without the melee buff. Also, 35 energy becomes 24.5 energy with streamline (one orb), so smoke screen becomes really spammable. 

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    • Lol, invis doesn't make you invulnerable. It turns invisible, and I explained why that does not make up for what you would get from other frames. Just because things can't target you doesn't mean you can't take damage. Trinity has invulnerablity. (Blessing) Frost has a degree of invulnerability. (Snow Globe stops bullets.) Both affect the entire group, not just the caster. Trinity has Link as well, which reduces their own damage taken by 75% AND transfers 100% of what the damage would have been to nearby enemies.

      Increased melee damage kind of sucks because melee weapons kind of suck. If you are out of ammo, then sure it's great. (Not as great as a damage frame's AOE) Otherwise kind of useless.

      It isn't that the ability is completely useless, it is that other frames' abilities are much better for all content in the game... It isn't a stealth/sabotoge game. What they call sabotoge is basically storming through an area and shooting at a device, or defending a console. The fact is that neither of these frames are capable of pulling their weight in any high level content. The only situation I can see a use (practical use comparative to other frames' abilities) for invisibility is if you are doing solo boss runs and don't want to be shot to death.

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    • Just because they can't target you means you can't take damage (other then from poison, and things like broken glass). Invisibility makes you unkillable, as long as you don't try to hug a toxic ancient, for 25 energy. As for damage, shuriken does 1000 serrated blade damage, which isn't bad considering some of the other direct damage first abilities. Also, with 75% efficiency blade storm costs 25 energy, and has no downsides... but I don't like win buttons, so I don't do that. Also, Ash and Loki are both fast, and Ash has good defenses. 

      PS I'm not an Ash fanboy. He was my fourth frame, and while he's definitly not my favorite, I see his value and can use him effectively 

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    • Actually if they shoot toward your ally and the bullets hit you, then you still get hit. So no not true. And there are frames with MUCH better damage abils. And again, there is just flat out no viable use for either frame... Name one map type that Loki or Ash excels at compared to other frames. Hint, it doesn't exist.

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    • While I don't use ash most of the time, I have ranked him to 30, and used him a lot after that. In all this time I have never taken damage from bullets while I was invisible, ever. I'm guessing you don't use Ash/ Loki? As for missions they are good in (what I assumed you meant by maps):

      In assasination, bosses usually do so much damage/ have stagger, that even though, say, a supercharged maxed out galantine could do heavy damage, you would never be able to use it, unless you were, say invisible. (Also, don't say invulnerability. Against strong bosses, you will still die in seconds with link, and iron skin will last about 0.1 seconds. Blessing doesn't stop stagger, and cloak only lasts for one hit.) If you have strong ranged weapons, invisiblity will still keep you alive.

      In survival, invisibility will allow you to stay alive, while collecting life support without getting destroyed (same arguments against invulnerability as before).

      I could continue, but I realized that most other missions while have similar arguments, and the thought of writing them all down bores me.

      As for damage dealing abilities, they all are out classed late game unless you are Nova (or kind of Nyx and Mag). This being said, shuriken has the same potential damage as shock or fireball (fireball could do more, if enemies are grouped together), but it ignores armour, unlike the other two (also, it does more then null star).  Teleport is a mobility tool, but onlike others, it only uses 25 energy. And then there is blade storm + maxed efficiency.

      Blade storm costs 100 energy, meaning it uses 25 energy minimum, with no side effects. Blade storm hits 15 targets for 2000 damage each, meaning for 25 energy you deal 30000 damage while being completly invulnerable, and you regenerate over 25 energy during the duration if you have energy siphon. The only problem is its the definition of a win button (press power button while looking at enemy to not die and kill everything, as necessary). 

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    • Is the radial disarm silent or does it put people on alert?

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    • Woundheir wrote:
      Actually if they shoot toward your ally and the bullets hit you, then you still get hit. So no not true. And there are frames with MUCH better damage abils. And again, there is just flat out no viable use for either frame... Name one map type that Loki or Ash excels at compared to other frames. Hint, it doesn't exist.

      You obviously dont use Loki much, but anyway if I had to name a couple I'd say 1. Capture missions and 2. Survival (if your willing to go perma-stealth). 

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    • ^that question isn't meant for this thread, but i think it does alert enemies. but since the mobs arent aware of you (given you are invisible or hiding), they wont try to trigger an alarm and will only need to be given time to "cool off"

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    • Just noticed that this is getting very off topic...

      To bring it back, neither ability is clearly better (now that invisibility works on sentinels). Choose Ash for sneak attacks and damage dealing, or Loki sneak attacks along with enemy confusion and debuffs.

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    • Loki is fun with Radial Disarm + Decoy + Invisibility.

      All the Grineer, Corpus, and Infested come to Decoy to get sliced in half by Loki's Galatine/Orthos Prime.

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    • I guess Loki wins?

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    • Loki wins. In any way his DPS higher, counting he spend less time recasting stealth.

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    • Ickleslimer wrote:
      Is the radial disarm silent or does it put people on alert?

      IIRC all abilities are silent, but Radial Disarm in particular seems to actually cause targets (Grineer and Corpus anyway) to become demi-unalerted. Stealth attack prompts won't appear on them, but they'll walk around casually like they haven't seen you yet.

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    • Woundheir wrote:
      Name one map type that Loki or Ash excels at compared to other frames. Hint, it doesn't exist.

      Try doing a 70+ minute Grineer/Corpus survival without a 50-meter/25-energy Radial Disarm Loki. Hint, it doesn't exist. ~_~

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    • Vithy wrote:
      Woundheir wrote:
      Name one map type that Loki or Ash excels at compared to other frames. Hint, it doesn't exist.
      Try doing a 70+ minute Grineer/Corpus survival without a 50-meter/25-energy Radial Disarm Loki. Hint, it doesn't exist. ~_~


      Hint, I have and its easy. Hint, Nyx CC is better, Frost snow globes are better, Trinity invincibility is better, and Nekros CC is better as well. And then you have several frames with high damage AoEs that are more useful than both frames. And Rhino with the weapon damage boost to group. Vauban has decent CC as well, certainly better than Loki.

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    • Woundheir wrote:
      Vithy wrote:
      Woundheir wrote:
      -snip-
      -snip-

      Hint, I have and its easy. Hint, Nyx CC is better, Frost snow globes are better, Trinity invincibility is better, and Nekros CC is better as well. And then you have several frames with high damage AoEs that are more useful than both frames. And Rhino with the weapon damage boost to group. Vauban has decent CC as well, certainly better than Loki.

      In the order you listed:

      Chaos with any sort of appreciable duration costs much more energy to use, and when Chaos runs out, everything will still have guns and be suddenly VERY interested in shooting you with them; Disarm built correctly is minimum cost and is always permanent.

      Snow Globes don't save you from Scorches or Napalms, or even keep Shield Lancers from knocking you down or out of them; Disarm can. The only thing I might give to Globe over Disarm is that it can block Scorpion harpoons (those are annoying as hell).

      Blessing's invincibility is also temporary and won't save you from knockdowns or being stunlocked in a corner by four Shield Lancers; Disarm means you won't even have to deal with all that crap in the first place. (I don't know how their shields count as "guns", but they lose them when they get disarmed, meaning no bash attack.)

      I assume that by "Nekros CC" you mean Terrify, which has a limited number of affected targets; Disarm affects all targets within range.

      At high levels, damage-oriented AoEs are far outdone by weapons and utility abilities.

      Rhino's Roar is nice, no argument there. But you make it sound like it would help save a group that's being shot at by more level 80 enemies than they can target at once; Disarm actually can, by taking away their guns and letting you pick them off from a safe spot.

      Vauban's CC is only good for things within range, meaning you don't get as many Grineer in your Bastille/Vortex simply because they don't bum-rush the way Infested do; Disarm can not only affect a huge radius, it can make Bastille and Vortex far more effective against ranged enemies by forcing them to run at you.

      In fact, Disarm in tandem with almost any of the abilities you listed makes them much more effective in general. The fact of the matter is that Loki is far from useless; after all, he equals or trumps all the things the frames you listed can do. Being able to take away the ranged variable when you fight non-Infested means if you're in a spot the enemy can't be, you won't get hurt. That's useful.

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    • Vithy wrote:
      Woundheir wrote:
      Vithy wrote:
      Woundheir wrote:
      -snip-
      -snip-

      Hint, I have and its easy. Hint, Nyx CC is better, Frost snow globes are better, Trinity invincibility is better, and Nekros CC is better as well. And then you have several frames with high damage AoEs that are more useful than both frames. And Rhino with the weapon damage boost to group. Vauban has decent CC as well, certainly better than Loki.
      In the order you listed:

      Chaos with any sort of appreciable duration costs much more energy to use, and when Chaos runs out, everything will still have guns and be suddenly VERY interested in shooting you with them; Disarm built correctly is minimum cost and is always permanent.

      Snow Globes don't save you from Scorches or Napalms, or even keep Shield Lancers from knocking you down or out of them; Disarm can. The only thing I might give to Globe over Disarm is that it can block Scorpion harpoons (those are annoying as hell).

      Blessing's invincibility is also temporary and won't save you from knockdowns or being stunlocked in a corner by four Shield Lancers; Disarm means you won't even have to deal with all that crap in the first place. (I don't know how their shields count as "guns", but they lose them when they get disarmed, meaning no bash attack.)

      I assume that by "Nekros CC" you mean Terrify, which has a limited number of affected targets; Disarm affects all targets within range.

      At high levels, damage-oriented AoEs are far outdone by weapons and utility abilities.

      Rhino's Roar is nice, no argument there. But you make it sound like it would help save a group that's being shot at by more level 80 enemies than they can target at once; Disarm actually can, by taking away their guns and letting you pick them off from a safe spot.

      Vauban's CC is only good for things within range, meaning you don't get as many Grineer in your Bastille/Vortex simply because they don't bum-rush the way Infested do; Disarm can not only affect a huge radius, it can make Bastille and Vortex far more effective against ranged enemies by forcing them to run at you.

      In fact, Disarm in tandem with almost any of the abilities you listed makes them much more effective in general. The fact of the matter is that Loki is far from useless; after all, he equals or trumps all the things the frames you listed can do. Being able to take away the ranged variable when you fight non-Infested means if you're in a spot the enemy can't be, you won't get hurt. That's useful.


      WTF are you talking about? Chaos costs 75 energy, while Radial Disarm costs 100 energy. Radial Disarm costs more not less. Without additional mods Chaos also lasts 25 sec, which should be more than enough. 39.5 sec with both mods. Radial Disarm also doesn't stop them from attacking, just using ranged. Meaning they swarm and try to corner you and your team rather than fighting each other. And Nyx has Absorb as well, which is amazing in survival.

      I'm not saying any one CC method is perfect. Which is why you use them in conjunction with each other. I would argue that Snow Globe DOES save you from Napalms if modded correctly for extra range and your group isn't stupid enough to stand near the edge, but nevertheless other CCs should be used in things such as long survivals. Ideally not things that make NPCs run up to and melee the group down while you are huddled in a snow globe. More like things that make your enemies attack each other, raise them in the air, make your group invincible 10+ seconds, etc.

      I'm sorry but your argument against Blessing only applies to really shitty players, which I am unable to relate to in any way. Those players should not be attempting difficult content in the first place. Shield Lancers are really easy to avoid. You flank them and shoot. Or hell, run around in circles. The only thing the player can do that results in what you stated is stand in one spot without moving while a Lancer charges them with no help from their allies.

      By Nekros CC I meant both Terrify (Which increases damage against them as well BTW) and Shadows of the Dead, which fight for you and attract enemies. They also have the health loot abil for extra health orbs, ammo, etc; although I think it is broken ATM?

      Lol @ the "At high levels, damage-oriented AoEs are far outdone by weapons and utility abilities." At any levels many frames have weapon damage increasing abilities. Some of which also decrease enemy damage, fire speed, etc. Examples: Molecular Prime (Direct damage + 2x weapon damage multiplier against affected enemies + enemy speed decrease), Antimatter Drop (4x weapon damage fired at it as an AoE explosion), Roar (50% damage boost to group), Hysteria (A ton of damage with full power strength mods + invincibility), two Volt abilities, etc etc.

      The only thing I made Roar sound like was an increase to group weapon damage from a Warframe that can take a lot of damage. The other frames in group would prevent the group from dying with CC, the Rhino would buff the group and depending on build maybe tank melee that get close.

      It depends on what map you end up on. Vauban are very good at utilizing choke points for CC. More importantly they group up enemies while making them not attack, which make things such as Molecular Prime much easier to cast. An alternative is the Trinity's Blessing to make melee range abilities much safer. And of course there are other strategies.

      The fact of the matter is that Loki are a beginner frame that exists to introduce you to the game. It's abilities simply cannot compete with other Warframes' equivalents. I's CC isn't really even a CC because they still attack you and you are left with other issues the Loki created. And the positive benefits it provides are overshadowed by much better alternaticves such as group invincibility, true CC, shielded areas, etc. The one thing it has going for it is stealth, which does not fit too well into this game. Simply because you enjoy using it's abilities does not somehow make it a good Warframe. Feel free to use it as much as you like. Just do yourself a favor and unequip it for something better when playing difficult content.

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    • Woundheir wrote:

      -snip snippity snip-

      Yes, at base Chaos costs 75 energy and Disarm costs 100. But if you want your Chaos to have any appreciable duration, you can't put much Fleeting Expertise on it. Disarm is not affected by duration, so Loki can hit the 75% efficiency cap and not give a care. I did say "Disarm built correctly". And yes, they don't turn on each other with Disarm, but that doesn't matter if they still can't hit you. Absorb can be nice in Survival until you reach the point where it doesn't kill everything that's attacking you - in which case Nyx is the one that's promptly downed, being a 15-armor frame and all. And a downed ally opens up a whole new mess of problems for the squad.

      RE: Snow Globe being modded for extra range: Bit of a gamble there, especially when you consider that an extra-large globe means things are more likely to get inside where they can shoot at you freely, and that the slowing field does NOT expand with the rest of the globe. There's a reason Frosts that play defensively with Globe generally have no Stretch or limited Stretch. Use it at your own risk.

      Let me just say right here that your dickish attitude towards less experienced players is childish and uncalled for. So stop that, because you sucked at Warframe when you started too. :)

      Back to business: We're talking about frame usefulness, right? Do you deny that Shield Lancers being unable to knock down players is useful? Because I'm sure that even such a veteran player as yourself has been knocked down by one and paid dearly for it from time to time. Accidents happen, people make mistakes. Like I said, why would you chance relying on Blessing (with that horrifyingly long cast time) to save your ass from such a situation when you could just avoid it in the first place?

      Shadows of the Dead and extra damage against enemies are nice, yes. But SotD takes so long to cast, you'd better hope you're in a nook somewhere (in which case, the AI might bug out and cause them to just shoot at walls; have they fixed that yet?). And you can't cast Terrify until the current cast is out, so you can only affect one group of enemies at a time; are you going to go look specifically for the affected targets in the horde? (And I think Desecrate worked fine last time I checked. That is a very useful skill as far as oxygen packs go.)

      As far as Damage vs Utility abilities goes, you seem to be confused regarding their definitions. If people cast the ability itself just to inflict damage, then it is damage-based (e.g. World on Fire, Radial Javelin, Crush. These things do direct damage and nothing more). If people cast it for other reasons, then it is utility (e.g. Vortex for localized CC, Rhino Stomp for AoE stasis CC, Smoke Bomb to revive someone unhindered). Molecular Prime, then, is a utility ability because at high levels, nobody really gives a crap about 800 base damage per explosion; it's more about the slowing effect and the double damage. All of the abilities you listed there are utility, not damage, with the sole exception of Antimatter Drop - that is one of the few damage-only abilities that remains viable at high levels (and that is due to its ability to absorb damage from your weapons, which do much more damage than abilities in the first place). Seriously, try taking out some level 100 things with, let's say, just Rhino Stomp. No Roar, no weapons. You wouldn't be able to because the damage is crap at that point - it's the stasis that matters when you're facing stuff that giggles and wiggles its toes when you tickle it with 1k damage.

      RE: Rhino Roar: Technically, we were talking about crowd control, and you submitted that Roar increases team damage, thereby implying that you thought of it as a CC ability, which it isn't. Not much more to say about that. As far as its utility goes, it's a great skill. No arguments there.

      Vauban's good for chokepoints, yes. I'm just pointing out that Loki helps make it easier for him to maximize his skills' effectiveness by forcing ranged things to run toward you.

      Loki may be a starter warframe, but maybe you didn't notice that the description suggests he is for advanced players? Perhaps you think he is useless compared to other frames because he's not an easy frame to play and you haven't quite gotten the hang of it. Every frame excels at different things and Loki is exceptional in that respect. You say that he's no match for other frames' equivalents, but the fact of the matter is that there are really no equivalents. Molt comes close to Decoy, sure, but you have to put that where Saryn herself can be; you can't wedge Molt between two large crates or under a staircase where it will attract attention but can't be hit like with Decoy, but you CAN put it in midair, which you can't do with Decoy. Ash may have invisibility too and his even staggers enemies in range, but Loki's lasts longer and can be cast in midair. Switch Teleport - well, even I honestly don't use that much except for getting around, heh. But nothing works on the scale of Disarm. There are no equivalents and whether I enjoy the frame or not (I hate Nova, but I don't deny she's useful) has no bearing on whether a frame is viable or not.

      And just for the record, I've been in level 100+ Grineer Survivals on that Loki without being downed once when there were Rhinos going down every so often. "Something better when playing difficult content," eh. It's all down to the player. Tactics. Awareness. Unless you picked a godawful frame for the job, it's on you. Not the frame.

      [edit] Clarification and WOW formatting screwed up majorly. O_O

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    • Vithy wrote:
      Woundheir wrote:

      -snip snippity snip-

      Yes, at base Chaos costs 75 energy and Disarm costs 100. But if you want your Chaos to have any appreciable duration, you can't put much Fleeting Expertise on it. Disarm is not affected by duration, so Loki can hit the 75% efficiency cap and not give a care. I did say "Disarm built correctly". And yes, they don't turn on each other with Disarm, but that doesn't matter if they still can't hit you. Absorb can be nice in Survival until you reach the point where it doesn't kill everything that's attacking you - in which case Nyx is the one that's promptly downed, being a 15-armor frame and all. And a downed ally opens up a whole new mess of problems for the squad.

      RE: Snow Globe being modded for extra range: Bit of a gamble there, especially when you consider that an extra-large globe means things are more likely to get inside where they can shoot at you freely, and that the slowing field does NOT expand with the rest of the globe. There's a reason Frosts that play defensively with Globe generally have no Stretch or limited Stretch. Use it at your own risk.

      Let me just say right here that your dickish attitude towards less experienced players is childish and uncalled for. So stop that, because you sucked at Warframe when you started too. :)

      Back to business: We're talking about frame usefulness, right? Do you deny that Shield Lancers being unable to knock down players is useful? Because I'm sure that even such a veteran player as yourself has been knocked down by one and paid dearly for it from time to time. Accidents happen, people make mistakes. Like I said, why would you chance relying on Blessing (with that horrifyingly long cast time) to save your ass from such a situation when you could just avoid it in the first place?

      Shadows of the Dead and extra damage against enemies are nice, yes. But SotD takes so long to cast, you'd better hope you're in a nook somewhere (in which case, the AI might bug out and cause them to just shoot at walls; have they fixed that yet?). And you can't cast Terrify until the current cast is out, so you can only affect one group of enemies at a time; are you going to go look specifically for the affected targets in the horde? (And I think Desecrate worked fine last time I checked. That is a very useful skill as far as oxygen packs go.)

      As far as Damage vs Utility abilities goes, you seem to be confused regarding their definitions. If people cast the ability itself just to inflict damage, then it is damage-based (e.g. World on Fire, Radial Javelin, Crush. These things do direct damage and nothing more). If people cast it for other reasons, then it is utility (e.g. Vortex for localized CC, Rhino Stomp for AoE stasis CC, Smoke Bomb to revive someone unhindered). Molecular Prime, then, is a utility ability because at high levels, nobody really gives a crap about 800 base damage per explosion; it's more about the slowing effect and the double damage. All of the abilities you listed there are utility, not damage, with the sole exception of Antimatter Drop - that is one of the few damage-only abilities that remains viable at high levels (and that is due to its ability to absorb damage from your weapons, which do much more damage than abilities in the first place). Seriously, try taking out some level 100 things with, let's say, just Rhino Stomp. No Roar, no weapons. You wouldn't be able to because the damage is crap at that point - it's the stasis that matters when you're facing stuff that giggles and wiggles its toes when you tickle it with 1k damage.

      RE: Rhino Roar: Technically, we were talking about crowd control, and you submitted that Roar increases team damage, thereby implying that you thought of it as a CC ability, which it isn't. Not much more to say about that. As far as its utility goes, it's a great skill. No arguments there.

      Vauban's good for chokepoints, yes. I'm just pointing out that Loki helps make it easier for him to maximize his skills' effectiveness by forcing ranged things to run toward you.

      Loki may be a starter warframe, but maybe you didn't notice that the description suggests he is for advanced players? Perhaps you think he is useless compared to other frames because he's not an easy frame to play and you haven't quite gotten the hang of it. Every frame excels at different things and Loki is exceptional in that respect. You say that he's no match for other frames' equivalents, but the fact of the matter is that there are really no equivalents. Molt comes close to Decoy, sure, but you have to put that where Saryn herself can be; you can't wedge Molt between two large crates or under a staircase where it will attract attention but can't be hit like with Decoy, but you CAN put it in midair, which you can't do with Decoy. Ash may have invisibility too and his even staggers enemies in range, but Loki's lasts longer and can be cast in midair. Switch Teleport - well, even I honestly don't use that much except for getting around, heh. But nothing works on the scale of Disarm. There are no equivalents and whether I enjoy the frame or not (I hate Nova, but I don't deny she's useful) has no bearing on whether a frame is viable or not.

      And just for the record, I've been in level 100+ Grineer Survivals on that Loki without being downed once when there were Rhinos going down every so often. "Something better when playing difficult content," eh. It's all down to the player. Tactics. Awareness. Unless you picked a godawful frame for the job, it's on you. Not the frame.

      [edit] Clarification and WOW formatting screwed up majorly. O_O


      Loki can't use Fleeting Expertise either if they want to use invisibility, which is pretty much their main ability. Why would you make a "disarm build"? It is inferior to other Warframes' CC... And they CAN hit you, they will run up and do so. And you are now dealing with movement issues since they will crowd around you, whereas Blessing/Snow Globe do not have such issues. I kind of gave you the benefit of the doubt that you were invisible while running into the middle of hostile NPCs. If you are claiming to have done that in high duration/level survival without invisibility you are lying. Simple as that.

      Snow Globe modded for range is not a gamble. It helps prevent a lot of issues. Ranged tend to just keep shooting at you with it up, they aren't going to run into the bubble unless the frost placed it poorly. Even if some do they are slowed, and like I already said you can use other viable cc in conjunction with Snow Globe.

      Actually I stated that if you enjoy playing Loki go ahaid and do that in lower difficulty content, but don't make BS excuses as to why you are using an inferior warframe. New players, that don't even know how useless Loki is compared to other frames, should not be attempting difficult content.

      The last time I was knocked down by a shield lancer was like 3 months ago. And it took me a couple seconds to get back up and I was fine. Your example of several lancers cornering you has never happened to me, even when I had no clue what I was doing. Now if it could literally dis-arm Ancients I could see a use. But it can't. I would assume the reason you get hit by so many lancers is because you are running up to them trying to cast disarm...

      It is great and all that you know the difference between a damage spell and utility spells... but it has no relevance to anything I said. (You actually have it slightly wrong though, CC is utility, damage is not, thus Roar is not a utility skill.) I am not confused about anything. You seem to be though.

      "RE:" (Which should be ""I.E.:" for you, but ironically works for me since this is a direct response) We were talking about the usefulness of different Warframes, and I was saying that bringing that warframe is more useful than bringing a Loki. Your implecations are invalid. I initially stated that damage abilities would be more useful than what little Loki has to offer, you replied that damage abilities were not as good as weapon damage, and I gave that as one of several examples of why you are wrong. (Because it multiplies weapon damage.)

      If the description told you to jump off a bridge would you? The description is just wrong. Its sort of like how Saryn's description tries to overplay how useful Shed is. It isn't even worth wasting a slot on. Or how Volt is supposed to be an "alternative to gunplay", yet one of it's best abilities is a shield that enhances your guns' damage... It is a Warframe with invisibility and a really poor CC. There are plenty of equivalents. And lol @ decoy, you make it more and more obvious that you have no high level experience. Decoys don't scale at all, so they die ultra fast. They also create line of sight issues, which is especially annoying for other players.

      And simply not dying with a frame that turns invisible is not an accomplishment. If you aren't really contributing to the group and just sort of doing your own thing, then why play a multiplayer game? I'm assuming you mean the old rating system 100, which is not impressive either. Difficult content doesn't even really go by level any more.

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    • Oh look! Arguments, arguments everywhere :) 

      Well you do realize Loki is for advanced players, right? Maybe you never had the chance on using him on his full potential because you are just a noob, Woundheir? Why not try to MOD him?

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    • Mind making a video of disarm build loki in a 70+ survival?? 

      I want to see it in action. If possible some other frames as well.

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    • 175.139.99.124 wrote:
      Mind making a video of disarm build loki in a 70+ survival?? 

      I want to see it in action. If possible some other frames as well.

      My computer can't handle recording videos, sadly. I will gladly take a screenshot for you when I get back to playing though.

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    • 120.28.127.139 wrote:
      Oh look! Arguments, arguments everywhere :) 

      Well you do realize Loki is for advanced players, right? Maybe you never had the chance on using him on his full potential because you are just a noob, Woundheir? Why not try to MOD him?

      Why thank you! :D

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    • Woundheir wrote:


      -snip snip snip-

      You should really start snipping the quotes if we're going to continue this, you know. Also, I'm going to ignore stupid things you say that don't have any argumentative value. Anyway:

      Why Disarm? Because Invisibility DOESN'T HELP YOUR TEAMMATES. If you think Loki's Invisibility is his only saving grace, you're got a lot to learn. I don't need to be invisible to disarm things that are threatening my team; with my loadout, if I hear gunfire that sounds even remotely hostile (I usually don't even see it), I press 4 and win the game. You claim to be such an expert player, yet you find a mob of enemies trying to melee you to actually be a problem? Sorry to be blunt, but that smells like noob to me. :/

      RE: Shield Lancers: Three months huh. Been playing Rhino? Either way, you did get knocked down, didn't you. It didn't matter that you got back up without getting killed; it mattered that you could have. And the corner-rape of Lancers actually happened to a teammate, and I wasn't on Loki at the time. :)

      I just read through to the end of your reply and you know what? I'm ending this "debate" now, even though I could have ended it several posts ago because of how thoroughly I was crushing you. If you think Molt ("Shed"? HAHAHAHAHAHA) is useless, you're clearly using it wrong. If you think Decoy is useless, you're clearly using it wrong, as it's better than Molt in some respects. In fact, I'd wager that you use a LOT of Warframes/abilities wrong. You're a case of L2P, sorry to say.

      Don't reply to this anymore. Seriously. Go play CoD or some other generic shooter game that doesn't require skill or creativity. Yes, you were just insulted by a woman. About video games. Hope you aren't too traumatized.

      Oh and FYI, "i.e." stands for "id est", which means "in other words" (literal translation: "that is"). Usage example: "Loki can disarm enemies; i.e., he takes away their guns." Try to keep that in mind to avoid further embarassing yourself in the future.

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    • Man that got off topic really quick, didn't it? As Vithy has been trying to point out (Well, at least I think she was.), is that Loki has a lot of potential to help their team. Disarming everyone and forcing them to run towards the main group could lead to a Rhino stomp or an Avalanche (I think that's the Frost's fourth ability), etc. etc. 


      Instead of trying to point out the flaws in Loki (Or any warframe for that matter.), why not discuss the pros and how they cooperate with other warframes? This is designed as a Co-op game, afterall. 


      As for the original question, I feel Loki's stealth is better for going around a room and attacking targets that are scattered/in clusters around the room. Even if all the Loki does is stealth, run to a group, then jump + melee to stun the group is good for utility purposes and giving some breathing room. Ash I feel would be better against a wave of enemies that has already gotten to you, due to the disruption of the stealth plus Blade Storm to clear said cluster. I cannot say a whole lot on Ash as I don't own him, but I do own Loki (being the warframe I chose at beginning.).

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    • Yep, it's a Co-Op game, everyone has a part on their team, and everyone's got their own playstyle. Loki might be fragile but because he has Invisibility and Radial Disarm, he can be too much of a threat. If Loki's Invisibility is tandemed with a fully moded Galatine, he doesn't need damaging abilities.

      Ash on the other hand has a lower duration on his ability, but he has damaging abilities as well.

      There is no need to point out which one is a useless Waframe, because everyone has their playstyles, meaning there isn't a useless frame, it's just you, either it doesn't match your playstyle or you are just a whiny b*tch (yeah sorry for the word, it doesn't just feel right when people whine about stuff and comparisons like this). 

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    • It isn't about play style... it is about comparative usefulness. Some Warframes excel at damage in one way or another. Some Warframes excel at utility. Loki excels at... well nothing. There are better survival abilities than invisibility that keep not only you but the group alive. There are better CC abilities as well. Loki in Warfram's current mission types is like  a snow shovel in the Sahara Desert. Sure you could technically use it... but why would you?

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    • Because he's a god.

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    • Woundheir wrote:
      It isn't about play style... it is about comparative usefulness. Some Warframes excel at damage in one way or another. Some Warframes excel at utility. Loki excels at... well nothing. There are better survival abilities than invisibility that keep not only you but the group alive. There are better CC abilities as well. Loki in Warfram's current mission types is like  a snow shovel in the Sahara Desert. Sure you could technically use it... but why would you?

      You're thinking too much dude. Every Warframe brings something to the table otherwise DE wouldn't add it, and the sole reason why you can't stomach the Loki frame is indeed "play style". I've been in situations where everyone else had gone down against lvl. 90+ eniemes (before update11) and I was able to save them all by using Radial Disarm and Decoy.

      In survival especially he is usful because he can redirect traffic, and take care of troublesome enemies before they become a threat. My build specializes in stamina and high energy/duration, so im able to take advantage of Loki's speed and energy pool. I can even outrun ground shockwaves from heavy gunners etc...

      Keep in mind too the CC abilites you mentioned are not permanent, Loki's 'RD' is. Meaning that in high wave defense you don't have to worry about enemy abilities. Also, while invisibility is certainly spamable I think his best move is Decoy (although with high lvled you must position it carefully). 

      If you still have hang-ups on Loki, I would suggest asking specifically for an expert only Loki player in the chat. Or come ping me, my username is the same here as it is online.

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    • Dreamnomad wrote:

      If you still have hang-ups on Loki, I would suggest asking specifically for an expert only Loki player in the chat. Or come ping me, my username is the same here as it is online.

      I assume you haven't read my "discussion" with him in this thread; I spent a good amount of time detailing how Loki is a good frame, but he lacks both the reading comprehension and the open-mindedness for any of it to sink in.

      He won't be asking for your help (or anyone else's) because he thinks he's an expert player. Taking into account that this is someone who doesn't even know how to use Molt or Decoy properly, I'd have to rate that in the top ten funniest things I've ever heard anyone say.

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    • Dream, I have stated 3 times now including this that I am only referring to difficult content, and you should play what you like in easier content. lvl 90 was fairly low difficulty content before the level system change. And DE added more powerful frames after Loki, and has not balanced it since. I was not playing yet when Loki was originally introduced, but I imagine it was somewhat better balanced compared to other Warframes then. DE has mostly done a great job with this game. But it would be inaccurate to say they properly balanced all abilities/Warframes. Take Saryn's "Venom" ability for example. It was once a great ability. However, they made changes soley because the current mechanic being used was causing players lag. The overall damage was reduced to almost nothing due to the mechanic change. DE never rescaled the damage, and it remains a useless ability that was once fairly good. And Miasma has not been scaled for Damage 2.0 poison changes either. My point being that DE is not perfect, and in some cases can drag their feet on updating abilities to be useful in the current game.


      Vilthy, actually you lack the experience to realize that you are grasping at straws and making up invalid discussion points based on false information for high difficulty content.

      And the Decoy guides actually suggest intentionally exploiting glitches in the game such as making it fall through the ground or placing it in unreachable cracks. When a Warframe NEEDS to glitch out their abilities in ways not intended to be possible just to be sort of useful, but still less so than other Warframes... it speaks volumes on how useless the Warframe is IMO. I certainly would say that glitching your abilities is not using them properly.

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    • If by "false information" you mean actual, personal experience, then yeah, I guess you could say I'm making shit up. I've "only" played 1200+ hours of missions with a 95-96% completion rate, after all; what do I know? Oh, and here's something to chew on: If placing Decoy in those "glitched" positions actually were glitches, it would have been patched out LONG ago. Like before-open-beta ago.

      And I told you to stop replying. CoD moar, scrub.

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    • This is still going on...? Talk about stamina...

      Woundheir, 6 people (including myself) have actively argued with you, and more then I have time to count have talked about the usefullness of Loki or Ash. Accept that you are outnumbered, if nothing else. This really needs to end.

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    • Lol, try asking on in-game chat how many people think Loki is a great frame that is useful in difficult content. You will get laughed at. Several people defending Loki on a Loki thread (BTW I actually count 4 people and there are a few posts from "A WIKI contributor" that are likely the same people just not logged in) isn't impressive. You seem to think it is.

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    • I`ll go with Loki, continuity+ narrow minded (both maxed) for best duration.

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    • Woundheir wrote:
      "Lol, try asking on in-game chat how many people think Loki is a great frame that is useful in difficult content."

      Just out of curiosity, as you may have mentioned this before. What do you constitute as difficult content as of update 11.5?

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    • Dear morons who are doing Loki vs Ash..... Loki and Ash have 2 different perspectives/roles. Loki is a support warframe that can hold his ground all on his own, as he has very specific crowd control abilitys. Ash on the other hand is a stealth/assult as he has good health and shields, and can how the enemy like no tommorw. Now just cause both have a mod that makes them invisible that allows the two of them for stealthy gameplay. Now if there is a Loki Prime and Ash Prime that is going to be a HUGE downfall of this arguement (if both have abilitys that are good) as I am saying they both are very different, and cause they have 1 mod in common that allows both of these warframes for stealth reasons then there is somthing the matter with you people. Also Loki was my first warframe as he is my favorite, and taught me much about Warframe don't mean I am opinionated that Loki is better I see both of these Warframes as a leathal stealth combo that could have the enemies quake in fear as both of them slice their blades into their chests. BTW it depends on what type of stealth you like (asslut or support).

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    • Wow this kid who posted above me has a fuckin logical point on this... besides im sick of seeing this Ash vs. Loki shit for awhile....

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    • Agreeing with myself :p

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    • ITT: Person who doesn't know about wikia IP tracking calls other people morons. *headdesk*

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    • Jeez, people ._.

      Just use Rhino. 

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    • Just when I thought this thread had finally died...

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    • Sigh... let me do all the math for you to reach quasi-permanent (casting) solo invisibility (energy siphon).

      Loki (essence): r5 Continuity, r3 Constituion, r5 Streamline, r2 Fleeting Expertise, r5 Narrow Minded (r6 with rounding)

      Ash: r5 Continuity, r3 Constituion, r4 Streamline, r4 Fleeting Expertise, r8 Narrow Minded


      Results... Loki's can last for 21.8 seconds (27.2 seconds with a max narrow minded), Ash's can last for 15.1 seconds (16.6 seconds with a max narrow minded).


      FYI I have a rank 8 narrow minded on my Loki (25.1 seconds)... and I could not justify using Ash's smokescreen for the simple fact of having another 10 seconds to play with before casting.

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    • Forgot to mention, the damage bonus on both powers are the same.

      Thus, if you would like to test the effectiveness of Loki's and Ash's invisibility, try running a Nightmare Spy mission (anything except energy drain). Use my modset above (the higher the narrow minded, the better), and use a max Rush.


      Let me know which frame on average finishes quicker :P

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    • just use loki, its still lethal for high level enemies, while ash has limited amount of damage to certain enemies. loki is flexible

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    • VrasTheLoki wrote:
      They cannot deal direct damage, but they're still a lot more usefulllll ( high level missions, except Switch Teleport. Never liked that )

      Actually Ash deals more damage while invis and actually I prefer him over loki due to the fact that ash is stronger and deals more damage while invis

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    • 209.232.116.95 wrote:
      VrasTheLoki wrote:
      They cannot deal direct damage, but they're still a lot more usefulllll ( high level missions, except Switch Teleport. Never liked that )
      Actually Ash deals more damage while invis and actually I prefer him over loki due to the fact that ash is stronger and deals more damage while invis

      wrong!  you should reread the game mechanics on this wiki regarding stealth mechanics

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    • Isn't the whole point of invis/smoke screen is to stay invisible? Whilst it is true that Ash's smokescreen costs less, does it not seem counterintuitive to use it, since it'll end quicker than invis, thus making you more susceptible to damage, leading you to cast it more often? Ash is a bad ass though, no doubt about that.

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    • Everyone saying loki is better for higher levels, so is ash. Every 'frame is different and useful in different ways, but each are equal in their usefulness. I personally prefer ash over loki. It suits my lone wolf carefree kill-everyone-with-style gameplay. Does that mean mean it is better than loki? no! this is a stupid argument between two even stupider fan cults. People need to learn to keep their opinions to theirselves and just enjoy the game. 

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    • i use both ash and loki, and they are pretty much the same for me, even in high level missions, but when i switch frames i switch play styles aswell, both are good in solo and multi.

      in the end it's still you controlling them

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      • Ash takes Loki's hand*

      Loki, I've been wanting to say this for awhile now... but, can you go out with me?

      • Loki stares, blushes*

      I want them to be friends (couples :))))) )... no compaarison please... make my fantasy come true!!! SHIP IT LOKI X ASH/ASH X LOKI Either wayyyy202.188.68.219 (Serious BL fan fanboying on both frames)

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    • 110.174.134.50
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