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Steel Fiber vs Vitality


  • I have been trying to figure out why I'm hearing so much talk about how awesome armor is. Frankly, the math doesn't add up. A max rank Steel Fiber on a Warframe with a base armor of 150 would give you the largest gain, of an additional 15.9% damage reduction on their health bar.

    Effectively, this is the equivalent of multiplying your health by an additional 1.189. So, a Frost or Rhino with a max rank vitality would have 740 health. They already have 60% damage resist, which is the best with out buffs. If you put on the max rank Steel Fiber, you'd have effectively ~880 compared to a unit that has none.  An addition 140 effective health is not worth 14 points, if you ask me (7 in the polarity slot).

    Everyone that is not a Frost or a Rhino averages out to about 40 armor. That's about 29% damage reduction. So... Someone with vitality and 100 base health would have the same 740 Health.

    The Frost/Rhino, compared to them, would have an effective 1072, without using Fiber, and 1393 with Fiber in their diet. This is at least an additional 320 virtual health. And wouldn't you know it, that's the same amount of health you'd get from vitality Rank 7, which costs 9 points.

    I suppose you could say that it's a diminishing return. But frankly, armor is nothing without a bucket of health to back it up. If I were spending my points, I really might consider ignoring pumping armor for anything else.

    PLEASE Correct me if I'm mistaken in how armor works, or if my math is wrong.

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    • Let me try to answer your question.

      Firstly, damage reduction doesn't work like u imagined. It's decreasing incoming damage, so the effective health bonus multiply as damage reduction increase.

      The math formula here is: Effective Health = Total Health / (1 - Damage Reduction)

      That's mean for a base armor of 150 or 60% DR, addition 15.9%DR doesn't give u 18.9% increase in effective health. Rather, it increase 65.975% .

      Example : If an 50% DR warframe increase the armor to 75% DR. That's means it's effective health doubled, as all incoming damage cut from 50% to 25%, effectively half.

      Extreme example : Warframe Ember of 9% DR warframe uses Overheat ability(max focus mod), which increase DR to 91%. All incoming damage cut from 91% to 9%, effectively tenfold(x10) the health for the duration of the ability.

      Another point to take note is, unlike Vitality mod that increase health according to BASE health value, Steel Fiber affect the entire health pool, after Vitality mod.

      As for now, Steel Fiber is vivable only with high base armor & high health warframe, paired with Vitality mod.

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    • Yup, I used both with my Rhino and I wasn't taking even 5 damage/tick against level ~20 toxics. It adds a ton of damage soak against every shot. And the steel fiber is percent reduction, which means that it'll scale with the enemies, rather than simply being a bit more health. It makes big diferences higher up.

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    • Useing your math, here's a graph of everyone's effective health, and how the mods would effect it.

      WarframeAdjustedHealth

      Effective health with mods by Warframe

      In every case, Steel Fiber by its self is less effective than vitality. And in the low armor cases, it's practally worthless all together.

      Also, it's easy to rank all of the characters this way, as who has more effective health all together, except for Ash vs Frost/Rhino. Ash starts with more health, but less armor, so he gets less benifet from Steel Fiber.

      I don't know. Point per Point. I'd say go health first. If you have points left over, then add steel fiber. And don't even bother unless you're Ash, Frost, Rhino, or Saryn.

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    • Watever85 wrote:

      That's mean for a base armor of 150 or 60% DR, addition 15.9%DR doesn't give u 18.9% increase in effective health. Rather, it increase 65.975% .

      Example : If an 50% DR warframe increase the armor to 75% DR. That's means it's effective health doubled, as all incoming damage cut from 50% to 25%, effectively half.

      Oops, yeah, my bad. Brain fart, I suppose. That does make sence.

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    • Ash has 10 armor base... how is he getting a bigger boost from his armor than Excalibur? And how is Saryn, who has 100 getting more than Frost or Rhino, whom have 150? I don't know if your math is all square here... Not critisizing, just not connecting the dots. :P


      EDIT: Ash has 75 armor base, was confusing Loki, My bad :P

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    • i think the table is not a break down of gain to a specific stat, but rather total "effective" health. its not that one gets more bonus from armor, but rather there is more health for the armor to effect. but i still think there is something off with this.....

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    • From what i can tell, his table look identical to what i have come up with.

      My table is focused on the total percentage health given on each level of armor.

      Base Armor Value Base % Dmg Reduction Base % Effective Health Armor Value With Max SF Adjusted % Dmg Reduction Adjusted% Effective Health
      10 9.09 110 21 17.36 121.01
      50 33.33 149.99 105 51.22 205
      75 42.85 174.98 157.5 61.17 257.53
      100 50 200 210 67.74 309.98
      150 60 250 315 75.9 414.94


      List of Effective HP of max ranked warframe, installed both max ranked SF & Vit:

      Armor 150 Rhino/Frost EHP : (Base 300 + Vit 440) x 414.94% = 3070.556

      Armor 100 Saryn EHP : (Base 450 + Vit 660) x 309.98% = 3440

      Armor 75   Ash EHP : (Base 450 + Vit 660) x 257.53% = 2858.583

      Since armor value play the role of multiplier with the total health, warframe with higher base health benefit much more with Steel Fiber. Saryn and Ash fit the bill of having high HP and decent armor.

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    • I would point that when using the rejuv artifact, more armor may be better than more health, since the first improves the worth of health recovery while the last does the opposite.

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    • Due to the way that you need convert armor to DR% and then DR% to EH%, formula with armor can be simplified as this: 1 point of armor = +1% of health. So, Warframe with 10 armor will effectively have 10% more health, or 110%. Rhino will have 250%  EH with 150 armor ( +150%). That way it's easy to notice that SF have cumulative effect on health, with high HP/high AR Warframes getting most of it. So, for Ember maxSF(+110%AR) will grant only +11% to health on top of innate +10% (+21% total), while Rhino will get +165% on top of innate +150% (+315% total).

      Moreover, as people noted above, armor indirectly improves all HP restoring effects:

      while it doesn't change amount of HP restored it increases amount of damage absorbed by each HP point - warframe with more armor will loose less HP from same damage, needing less orbs /ticks of rejuv compared to light armored.

      Math:

      DR = AR/(AR+100) = AR/(AR+100) + 100/(AR+100) - 100/(AR+100) = 1 - 100/(AR+100),

      EH% = 100/(1-DR) = 100/(1 - (1 - 100/(AR + 100))) = 100/(100/(AR+100)) = (AR +100),

      EH% = BH% + adH%, adH% = AR

      AR - armor, DR - damage reduction, EH% - effective health as percent of base health(including vitality) in %,

      BH% - base health(including vitality) in percent (=100%), adH% - additional health in % to base health(including vitality)

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    • mind fuked :>

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    • How exactly does Frost compare  with his Aurora helmet on vs it off? Is it a net gain or a loss overall to have the Aurora?

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    • This is best discussed on the forums...

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    • Does armor take effect on all damage or only after shields are gone? (excluding things like toxic ancients) If it also reduces damage to shields..... well that would be interesting.

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    • Juncboks wrote:
      And how is Saryn, who has 100 getting more than Frost or Rhino, whom have 150? I don't know if your math is all square here... Not critisizing, just not connecting the dots. :P

      Saryn has base health 150, rather than 100. So she gets a lot more health out of Vitality, and that's also more health affected by armor.


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    • So this is useless for Excalibur?

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    • So I've done also done chart like above, but this is based on datamined stats posted by Pwnatron. Many stats differ from what was posted on the wiki and used in the above calculations, e.g. Saryn has 125 armor, not 100; Ash has 50 armor, not 75; Volt has 10 armor, not 50. I've also added Frost with his alternate helmet.

      Stats

      Hopefully I didn't have any typos in my calculations.

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    • 139.194.171.148 wrote:
      This is best discussed on the forums.

      I respectfully disagree.

      The wiki is the repository for most of the technical information outside the design counsul.

      That said, keeping the topic alive here where the information is most often sought and updated is a bit more important than notifying DE of any concerns or requests we may have, which in regard to this topic, I dont see any.

      I dont mean to shoot you down though, and I urge you to feel free to go to the forums and talk about it, Tenno.

      D
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    • (Edited CitizenVI's post just to place the last line under the text) history

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    • Thanks for that edit. That was my intention but it ended up on the side, heh.

      I thought this was somewhat relevant to the discussion. Since one of the recent updates (8.3?), armor seems to also reduce damage to shields.

      EDIT: It was fixed in the latest patch, 8.3.2.

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    • I wish they'd increase banshee, mag, trinity and nyx's armor. I don't see how it would hurt, and it looks almost sexist of DE that all the female frames but one are wimpy. I just use frames based on what I like, not what has the best stats. IE i care more about looks so I'm never going to use tough frames, and I'm probably always going to solo. And no I don't want a mod that does this, just literally raise them up so people can play what they like and not get the short stick.

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    • A stealth rebalancing an armor Gave Mag 50 armor, but frankly you playing the sexist card when all you use is frames for looks, you're completely forgetting that Banshee, Trinity and Nyx are all highly powerful caster frames that gives them the option to ignore most of the enemies or make them disabled more so than most other frames.

      Also they brought Ash "In line" with Excalibur and NOVA of all fuckign frames. Considering Ash's other abilites aside from Shuriken are all quite underpowered and his main strength was as a speedy yet tanky Melee frame, they made Steel fiber on him a lot less useful.

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    • I use maxed steel fiber on all of my frames. Poison never kills me anymore.

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    • DarkEminence wrote:
      I use maxed steel fiber on all of my frames. Poison never kills me anymore.

      But Poison ignores armor o_o. Does Infested poison work differently than ours (other than targeting HP directly)?

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    • The point about sexism wasn't about them being weak, it was about them being PHYSICALLY weak. The stereotype of low physical capacity and physical frailty is an infantilising one; in truth, women and men who train effectively are almost indistinguishable in physical ability, with upper body strength being the only difference and even that differing massively more among men or women than it does between men and women.


      So it's a little bit sexist, in a kind of "playing to stereotypes" way, that all the female frames are physically frail and even Saryn as the toughest is more frail than equivalent male frames. It's not a big deal.


      It could also be considered problematic that all of the strong female frames you cite are crowd control based, since the idea of woman as manipulative and controlling is also a similar stereotype.

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    • I keep getting contradictory info on this so I am asking in a few places. Does anyone know if steel fiber increases Rhino's iron skin? I shelved Steel fiber because of info found here... but if it increases iron skin, it's worth using.

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    • 98.231.224.253 wrote:
      I keep getting contradictory info on this so I am asking in a few places. Does anyone know if steel fiber increases Rhino's iron skin? I shelved Steel fiber because of info found here... but if it increases iron skin, it's worth using.

      Focus increases iron skin.

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    • I believe the question was: Does steel fiber increases Rhino's iron skin? Yes or not. I kinda came here for the same reason.

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    • SO SHOULD I GO VITALITY OR STEEL FIBER IF I CAN'T GET BOTH?!?! (FOR RHINO)

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    • AndyTheLegend wrote:
      SO SHOULD I GO VITALITY OR STEEL FIBER IF I CAN'T GET BOTH?!?! (FOR RHINO)

      Vitality.

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    • 94.195.87.164 wrote:
      The point about sexism wasn't about them being weak, it was about them being PHYSICALLY weak. The stereotype of low physical capacity and physical frailty is an infantilising one; in truth, women and men who train effectively are almost indistinguishable in physical ability, with upper body strength being the only difference and even that differing massively more among men or women than it does between men and women.


      So it's a little bit sexist, in a kind of "playing to stereotypes" way, that all the female frames are physically frail and even Saryn as the toughest is more frail than equivalent male frames. It's not a big deal.


      It could also be considered problematic that all of the strong female frames you cite are crowd control based, since the idea of woman as manipulative and controlling is also a similar stereotype.

      Er, did you look at the charts?

      Saryn is showing up as the 'frame with the HIGHEST effective health...

      (And if you're looking for perfect political correctness in video games, you're gonna have a bad time)

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    • since as Rhino, you would most likely be on Iron Skin. How is vitality more viable than having steel fiber. My health is barely scratched even on solo high level missions (if played carefuly). Opinions pls. tnx

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    • 2.49.158.125 wrote:
      since as Rhino, you would most likely be on Iron Skin. How is vitality more viable than having steel fiber. My health is barely scratched even on solo high level missions (if played carefuly). Opinions pls. tnx

      This is really just analyzing steel fiber and vitality, and not so much about their actual practical use.

      As a Rhino (or even as a Frost) you wouldn't really need it. Saryn could use both and go full HP build though, due to her high EHP.

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    • 2.49.158.125 wrote:
      since as Rhino, you would most likely be on Iron Skin. How is vitality more viable than having steel fiber. My health is barely scratched even on solo high level missions (if played carefuly). Opinions pls. tnx

      Because armor doesn't apply to shields, nor your actual Iron Skin.

      When your Iron Skin fails, damage will start hitting your shields. Then, when your shields are gone, the damage starts hitting your health - this is where armor starts mattering at all, but since armor gives you a percentile damage reduction, Steel Fiber would be pretty shit without a high-rank Vitality mod. 

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    • Tried this out on my Saryn and let me tell you its sickening strong. Recommend using it on her as either main setup or alternate set up.

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    • Conclusion

      All frames, even Rhino or Frost, get Vitality mod first!!!!

      Frost..... if you have Aurora Frost Helmet, use it! The over all EHP is slightly better than normal Frost.

      Whith Max Vitality: normal Frost, EHP 3300. Whith Aurora Frost Helmet, 3605


      Just to show you how much better Vitality is.....

      Max Steel Fiber (whith no vitality): Frost with Aurora Frost Helmet, EHP is only 1407


      GET VITALITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    • 67.162.72.85 wrote:
      I wish they'd increase banshee, mag, trinity and nyx's armor. I don't see how it would hurt, and it looks almost sexist of DE that all the female frames but one are wimpy. I just use frames based on what I like, not what has the best stats. IE i care more about looks so I'm never going to use tough frames, and I'm probably always going to solo. And no I don't want a mod that does this, just literally raise them up so people can play what they like and not get the short stick.

      You're also wrong to assume Trinity is whimpy. 

      I have Saryn, Rhino, Frost(with aurora), and Trinity, and I can  honestly tell you that even without armor.. Trinity can take the most punishment. With Link and Blessing, she can soak up more damage then any of the big 'boys'.

      Yes, she's still mainly a support class, and yes there are stereotyped characters in Warframe, but they're nowhere near as bad as you think they are. 

      Try playing any other video game ever to see how bad they're sexism is.

      At least our females actually wear armor... that covers their entire bodies no less! That's depressingly hard to find.

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    • 216.121.147.239 wrote:

      You're also wrong to assume Trinity is whimpy. 

      I have Saryn, Rhino, Frost(with aurora), and Trinity, and I can  honestly tell you that even without armor.. Trinity can take the most punishment. With Link and Blessing, she can soak up more damage then any of the big 'boys'.

      Yes, she's still mainly a support class, and yes there are stereotyped characters in Warframe, but they're nowhere near as bad as you think they are. 

      Try playing any other video game ever to see how bad they're sexism is.

      At least our females actually wear armor... that covers their entire bodies no less! That's depressingly hard to find.

      also inb4 someone cries that "oh but trinity has to cast to be good"  Because even in high levels rhino frost and saryn would be dead without proper use of iron skin/snow globe/molt.

      If you don't see the big tanks casting too, they're probably not doing it right.

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    • 94.195.87.164 wrote:
      The point about sexism wasn't about them being weak, it was about them being PHYSICALLY weak. The stereotype of low physical capacity and physical frailty is an infantilising one; in truth, women and men who train effectively are almost indistinguishable in physical ability, with upper body strength being the only difference and even that differing massively more among men or women than it does between men and women.


      So it's a little bit sexist, in a kind of "playing to stereotypes" way, that all the female frames are physically frail and even Saryn as the toughest is more frail than equivalent male frames. It's not a big deal.


      It could also be considered problematic that all of the strong female frames you cite are crowd control based, since the idea of woman as manipulative and controlling is also a similar stereotype.


      I'd say that, considering Saryn is actually the least frail of ALL the frames when we're talking raw EHP, your argument is invalid.  The male frames (frost/rhino) only even begin to be as durable by using 'magic' shields to protect them, where Saryn's the single largest meat shield in the game.

      I didn't need to prove that your argument was stupid though, because that's just blatantly obvious either way.

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    • ^Me again.  Also, as a person who effectively mains Trinity, I can tell you that she will out tank any other frame in the game by orders of magnitude played properly.

      And next tankiest frame in practice after Trinity is... suprise, Ember, with her Overheat properly modded giving her ~91% damage reduction, she's got literally over ten thousand EHP just in her health, let alone in her shields and guardian proc.  Rhino would give his left buttcheek to have that skill instead of iron skin come higher levels, especially considering he'd have to recast iron skin about 5 times to get the same effect.

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    • Plus it's always good to consider that when health orbs are scarce, with steel fiber, one orb goes a longer way, just as with power efficience. Adn that's more or less what armor is, health efficiency.

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    • well with the new valkyr warframe (correct me if im wrong spelling) has THREE HUNDRED ARMOR, yes 300 so if steel fiber at 100% or over your going into 600 or so armor and if armor was buffed, god she will be taking 1 damage from a vulkar in dueling

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    • 147.69.0.70 wrote:
      well with the new valkyr warframe (correct me if im wrong spelling) has THREE HUNDRED ARMOR, yes 300 so if steel fiber at 100% or over your going into 600 or so armor and if armor was buffed, god she will be taking 1 damage from a vulkar in dueling

      sorry i correct myself at max with 110% armor valkyr has 630 O_o

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    • Now that damage 2.0 has rolled out, does that mean nearly all enemy weapons deal a bit of armor piercing damage? If that is right then even with the new reduction calculation steel fiber is worse than before.

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    • 72.21.217.214
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